13 Rules: NBA Random Thoughts Overtime - Walt Frazier

[00:00:00] Alright, it's time to talk basketball. It's the NBA offseason. Football's going on. WNBA playoffs are going on. But we're having a really great NBA offseason talking about the greats from NBA past. I'm Jose Sobiade, editor at thepeachbasket.net. He's Steve Percielo, longtime educator, vice principal, high school coach, and athletic director. And this is the 13 Rules Random NBA Thoughts Overtime Podcast.

[00:00:24] Now, one show note before we dive deep into today's subject, we're excited to announce that next week, we're going to start a pretty fun overview of, instead of players, we're going to start an overview of rivalries, right? And probably the greatest NBA rivalry of all time are the Celtics and Lakers. And probably the highlight of that rivalry is the 1980s, where you had just two heavyweights playing.

[00:00:54] Punching it, punching out against each other. That didn't make any sense, but you know where I'm getting at. With one guy landing a punch and then one team friend landing a punch. And Steve and I are going to talk about it. He's from the East Coast and a Celtics fan. I'm from LA and a bit of a Laker fan.

[00:01:09] So we're going to talk about that starting next week. Please join us. Please add us. Make sure you don't miss it. It's going to be fun reliving the highs and the lows of the 1980s. Great rivalry between the Celtics and the Lakers.

[00:01:21] But today, we're going to continue what we started when the NBA season, offseason started. And that is discussing NBA greats with someone who watched them play.

[00:01:32] And Steve and I have been discussing NBA stars from the 60s and 70s by talking about them, again, with someone who watched them play. And that's Steve.

[00:01:39] What made them special? What player today most resembles that player? And what's Steve's greatest memory about that player?

[00:01:46] Today, we've discussed some of the NBA's greatest players. Will Chamberlain, Rick Barry, Pistol Pete, Ted Jerry West, Don Havlicek, Bill Russell, and more.

[00:01:55] We'll make sure to add links to all of that so you can read or, pardon me, watch, listen to those episodes because they really are pretty great.

[00:02:03] And additionally, we've had a busy offseason. We were able to enjoy some really great interviews with the NBA champion, Kevin Grevy, and NBA referee, Scott Foster.

[00:02:13] And we have another one coming up, which we'll share a little bit later.

[00:02:18] But really fun NBA offseason. Thank you if you have joined us through it.

[00:02:22] Today, we're discussing someone who many of you may know more as an announcer and is a great NBA player.

[00:02:30] But let me tell you, this guy was a great NBA basketball player.

[00:02:33] Two-time NBA champion in 1970-73.

[00:02:36] Seven-time NBA all-star.

[00:02:37] Four-time NBA all-first team, or first team rather.

[00:02:42] Seven-time NBA all-defensive first team.

[00:02:45] Top 50, top 75 NBA anniversary team.

[00:02:48] And his number 10 is retired by the New York Knicks.

[00:02:51] Today, we're discussing NBA great New York Knicks.

[00:02:56] Great Walt Frazier.

[00:03:00] All right.

[00:03:01] So, Steve, you and I talked a little bit about this before as we were prepping for the show.

[00:03:06] One of the things that I love about having this conversation with you is that we forget, I think, sometimes as a collective fan of the game, that these guys were great.

[00:03:17] And we think about them the way we know them now.

[00:03:20] Right?

[00:03:20] Walt Frazier, a phenomenally popular announcer for the New York Knicks, known for his getup and being a fan of the game and a fan of the Knicks.

[00:03:29] But back in his day, this guy was special.

[00:03:32] And it's really easy to forget that.

[00:03:35] So, I'm excited to learn about Walt Frazier from, again, someone who watched him play, which is you.

[00:03:39] So, tell us about Walt Frazier, man.

[00:03:42] Tell us, I guess we'll start at the beginning, right?

[00:03:44] What got him into the NBA and what made him special once he got there?

[00:03:48] Frazier played for Southern Illinois.

[00:03:50] And they went to the NIT.

[00:03:52] I guess it was his senior year.

[00:03:54] The NIT back then, unlike today, every game was in New York.

[00:04:00] They won his—the Southern Illinois Salukis won the NIT.

[00:04:04] He was the MVP of that.

[00:04:06] And with that, the Knicks, because he played in the unit, whatever, I remember correctly, in the New York area.

[00:04:12] He became a first draft choice by the Knicks.

[00:04:16] First year wasn't great.

[00:04:19] But after his first year, he emerged into becoming a star, a big-time star.

[00:04:26] And I think one of the first things I remember is in the 68-69 season, the Knicks were an up-and-coming team.

[00:04:34] They got to the Eastern Conference Finals against Boston.

[00:04:38] And this is Russell's last year.

[00:04:40] And I remembered it was—I don't know which game it was.

[00:04:43] There was a situation where you're sitting there and you're saying, oh, my God, this guy is going to be great.

[00:04:49] He controlled the whole tempo.

[00:04:52] He controlled the game.

[00:04:53] He can shoot.

[00:04:55] He had this little jumper that he would turn around with from about 15 to 18 feet.

[00:05:00] No three-point shot then.

[00:05:02] That was what he did.

[00:05:03] And growing up in the New York area and not quite being a Knicks fan, but watching him, you had to like him.

[00:05:09] He also liked to wear big hats.

[00:05:13] And at the time, Bonnie and Clyde was a big movie in the country.

[00:05:19] What?

[00:05:19] This is 68?

[00:05:21] But with that, he got the name Clyde after Clyde Barrow from Bonnie and Clyde.

[00:05:27] Because he wore—

[00:05:27] What's like that?

[00:05:28] He had the whole mystique going for him.

[00:05:31] And then we get to 1970 when the Knicks won in 69, 70.

[00:05:37] Oh, he was great.

[00:05:39] He was flat-out great.

[00:05:40] And what's interesting about that—and I'm just going to say something first before I go back to that series, that game, series against the Lakers.

[00:05:48] In those years from 70 to 76, 70 was the only year he averaged under 40 minutes a game.

[00:05:57] We put that in context with today.

[00:06:00] If a player is playing consistently 40 minutes a game, the minutes police are all over him.

[00:06:05] So, he did it, and he did it consistently every year.

[00:06:10] He hit 43 minutes a game.

[00:06:14] That means he only sent him five minutes a game, which is really remarkable.

[00:06:18] Because guys usually sit six in the first half and three or four in the second, depending on how big a game it is.

[00:06:25] He was doing that regularly.

[00:06:27] Now, we get to game seven, the famous game seven, where Willis Reed came ripping out of the locker room.

[00:06:34] Now, I have to say something first.

[00:06:36] I've seen film of that, but I never saw that live.

[00:06:40] Why?

[00:06:41] Because in our area—I grew up in the New York area—New York games were it on TV.

[00:06:47] So, there was a block out for game seven of the finals.

[00:06:50] We were listening to it on the radio.

[00:06:53] That's why.

[00:06:54] It's been reported when Reed came ripping out, it was only a couple minutes, two, three minutes before the jump ball, maybe a little more.

[00:07:01] But they were all warming up on the court.

[00:07:03] It's been said to the machine film, Will just stopped.

[00:07:06] Will just stopped and stared.

[00:07:08] Like, he couldn't believe this guy was coming.

[00:07:10] Willis was limping out.

[00:07:12] Supposedly, he got some sort of injection before he came out to make dead knit so he didn't feel it.

[00:07:18] He was badly injured.

[00:07:20] In fact, his career never came back from this.

[00:07:22] But people forget the important thing about this game.

[00:07:26] Walt Frazier had the greatest game seven probably in the history of the NBA.

[00:07:32] 36 points, which is incredible.

[00:07:35] Seven rebounds, 19 assists.

[00:07:39] And something he was famous for, six steals.

[00:07:43] Think about this.

[00:07:44] What a game.

[00:07:45] That's 38, that's 75 points he accounted for directly without even taking the rebounds or the steals into it.

[00:07:54] Now, don't forget, Frazier was well known because he was a great defensive player.

[00:07:58] I believe he was all defense numerous times.

[00:08:03] Seven times.

[00:08:04] Seven times, I'm sorry.

[00:08:05] But, beside that, he was considered tremendous at stealing the ball.

[00:08:12] So, there was so many great things about him.

[00:08:14] Think about that.

[00:08:15] He came a few rebounds and a few steals away from being quadruple-double.

[00:08:20] One of the, like I said, one of the greatest games in the finals.

[00:08:23] Incredible.

[00:08:24] That would be the big thing.

[00:08:25] And a year later, Earl Monroe came and joined him.

[00:08:28] We spoke about Earl Monroe early.

[00:08:30] It was always said in the New York area, they could never play.

[00:08:35] They both have to have the ball.

[00:08:37] Both of them sacrificed some things.

[00:08:40] But both of them were great together.

[00:08:43] And before, the best backcourt probably in the NBA at the time.

[00:08:47] So, that was some of the things that went on.

[00:08:50] Frazier came back.

[00:08:51] The Lakers won in 72 or 71, I guess it would be.

[00:08:58] But anyway, the Lakers beat the Knicks.

[00:09:00] And then the Knicks came back the year after with Monroe.

[00:09:03] And they got Monroe and won the NBA title beating the Lakers in a rematch for three straight years.

[00:09:10] The two of them met in the finals.

[00:09:12] It came out two for the Knicks and one for the Lakers.

[00:09:15] But it tells you how great he is.

[00:09:17] The other thing was, if you were a basketball fan, then the greatest gods, without question, were considered Oscar Robertson and Jerry West.

[00:09:27] And he sure was considered, and to tell you how great he was, just a notch or two below him.

[00:09:33] That kind of tells you how great he was.

[00:09:37] His career was limited.

[00:09:38] I believe he played to 79, which was limited.

[00:09:42] But in that career, he was just an amazing player.

[00:09:47] The thing that really stands out is, after 76, they trained him to Cleveland for Jim Clemens.

[00:09:54] And he played the last three years with Cleveland.

[00:09:57] His last year, he was getting injured a lot, which happens to all the players.

[00:10:01] He played a couple games.

[00:10:03] And that was the end of it in 79.

[00:10:05] So I guess you total it up.

[00:10:07] It's 11 years in the NBA, which is a short career.

[00:10:10] You almost wonder about the minutes being a reason for the short career.

[00:10:14] Putting that, he was considered just incredible.

[00:10:19] On that one year, you mentioned 69, 70 through, what'd you say?

[00:10:23] 75, 76, give or take.

[00:10:25] We covered 40.

[00:10:26] It was in that 69, 70 season, he averaged 39.5.

[00:10:31] It's absolutely shocking.

[00:10:32] And yeah, I think today, and we see the same thing in baseball, right?

[00:10:37] Back in the day, it was not unusual for Nolan Ryan to throw over 100 pitches.

[00:10:42] Today, you get to 80, and then the pitching coach is coming out.

[00:10:45] And like you said, the minutes police in the NBA is doing the same thing, restricting your time.

[00:10:49] And I think it's done, right?

[00:10:51] Because of that longevity, maybe Wolf Rager's career might have been 15 seasons

[00:10:56] if he would have played a little bit less, right?

[00:10:59] That's something that I think has evolved in the game over the years, don't you think?

[00:11:01] Right.

[00:11:02] Yeah, and I think there's one big reason.

[00:11:04] Agents.

[00:11:06] They want their client to get paid for a lot of years because they get paid.

[00:11:10] As long as they can.

[00:11:11] Sure.

[00:11:11] That's right.

[00:11:12] They're going to have something to say for guys being overused.

[00:11:16] You know, that was the big case about a lot of guys didn't want to play for Tibbs

[00:11:19] because they felt he overused guys minutes-wise.

[00:11:24] Right.

[00:11:24] Yeah, and they want a long career for more money.

[00:11:29] That's where it changed, in baseball and basketball.

[00:11:33] You know, when I think of Wolf Rager, and again, I keep going back to, it's sad.

[00:11:39] There's no better way, right, for me to say it.

[00:11:41] You know, and I'm including myself in this.

[00:11:44] Most basketball fans, when they first think of Wolf Rager, you know, today,

[00:11:48] and let's say maybe a certain subset of basketball fans, newer basketball fans,

[00:11:52] think of him as announcers because we never got to watch him play.

[00:11:55] When I think of Pistol Pete, I think of flashy, right?

[00:11:58] When I think of Jerry West, I think of a Dodd, right?

[00:12:00] Oscar Robertson, the triple-double.

[00:12:03] Walter Frazier was, I don't know where he fits, right?

[00:12:06] Because was he flashy?

[00:12:07] Was he consistent?

[00:12:09] If you could categorize him into one of those buckets, where would you put him

[00:12:13] or would you put him in another bucket?

[00:12:15] He, Bill Willis-Reade is the captain and all that.

[00:12:18] I would consider him the unequivocal leader of those teams.

[00:12:21] I would consider he was great off the ball.

[00:12:24] He would steal.

[00:12:25] He would flick a ball and tick off the down core with it.

[00:12:28] He just, defensively, he was just tremendous.

[00:12:31] And everybody recognized that.

[00:12:33] You have to understand and put it in context with the Knicks.

[00:12:37] The Knicks of that era were beloved.

[00:12:40] And I think that today is what started the whole,

[00:12:44] the Knicks were known as a great defensive team.

[00:12:48] Brett Holtzman was a coach that liked me and the man played defense.

[00:12:53] And defense was most important.

[00:12:55] He had a guy like DeBuscher, who was a great defender.

[00:12:57] He had Frazier.

[00:12:59] Monroe wasn't as good, but he did play more defense with the Knicks than he did with Baltimore.

[00:13:05] Reed was good.

[00:13:06] And don't forget, Reed was only 6'9".

[00:13:08] He was giving inches away.

[00:13:10] So he was 6'8".

[00:13:12] But he was giving inches away to the Will Chamberlain's elite.

[00:13:15] Reed was toughest.

[00:13:17] So they became a cult almost in the New York area because of the defense and the tenacity.

[00:13:23] And that was part of the mystique or the beauty of Will Frazier catching.

[00:13:29] I can't explain enough how the Knicks just took over New York.

[00:13:33] It's basically considered.

[00:13:34] And again, we had to go to a town to watch a game like a Knick game because they weren't on local TV, regular TV.

[00:13:44] And that was the advent of cable was beginning to come in.

[00:13:48] We had to go to a town about 20 miles from where we lived because in those places they would have the games on.

[00:13:55] And the place we went to would be packed with Knicks fans.

[00:14:00] The Knicks had taken over New York with this group.

[00:14:04] Willis Reed was just a great leader in his own way because he played no matter what.

[00:14:10] A little left-handed jump shot from about 15.

[00:14:13] As a center, now it's trouble because back then he brought everybody out.

[00:14:17] So it opened up things for everybody else.

[00:14:20] Everybody else, most guys playing in the post.

[00:14:22] But it did that.

[00:14:23] DeBuscher can shoot from anywhere.

[00:14:25] But Frazier orchestrated it again.

[00:14:27] 19 assists in the championship.

[00:14:30] That's just amazing to me.

[00:14:31] It tells you the value and how great he was.

[00:14:36] Yeah.

[00:14:37] And I think it's really telling that in kind of the big areas, the big cities, right?

[00:14:43] Let's talk about Los Angeles.

[00:14:44] Let's talk about certainly New York.

[00:14:46] When you have a team that's good, all of a sudden, all of New York, all of LA, right?

[00:14:54] And this is true of smaller teams too, undeniably.

[00:14:56] But there's just so many more people in New York and in LA and some of the other big cities.

[00:15:01] That it just becomes, like you said, it just takes over.

[00:15:04] Everything becomes about that team.

[00:15:06] That must have been a pretty special time.

[00:15:07] I think I've told you this story and I'll use it again.

[00:15:12] In the mid-70s, maybe 73, 74, we used to go to an establishment, I'll call it.

[00:15:20] In the establishment, you'd walk.

[00:15:25] There was a radio right in the middle of the bar.

[00:15:29] The Knick game would be on and you had to picture this.

[00:15:33] You don't know what except what the announcer's telling you.

[00:15:36] And the whole bar was quiet.

[00:15:38] It was a crowded bar.

[00:15:39] The bar was quiet.

[00:15:41] And if the Knicks scored, they'd all start cheering.

[00:15:44] That was how, like, fanatical the sports fans were.

[00:15:48] Because, again, you had to go 20 miles or so to catch the game on an actual cable television channel.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:56] And these are the kind of things that folks who lived through it lament.

[00:16:01] Because today's kids, basketball fans, are never going to experience that.

[00:16:05] But there was something special about it.

[00:16:07] And when we talk about the Lakers-Celtics rivalry in the 80s, I'm going to share my story with you.

[00:16:12] So I'm excited to finally participate in this conversation because I got to live through the 80s,

[00:16:17] the Celtics-Lakers rivalry, which we'll start to do next week.

[00:16:20] So listen, let's wrap up Walt Frazier with bar none, my favorite question when we discuss these NBA greats.

[00:16:27] And that is, who most resembles Walt Frazier's style of play today?

[00:16:32] If you had to pick one or maybe conflate a couple of players,

[00:16:35] who do you think is the Walt Frazier of today's NBA?

[00:16:39] The first thing I'll say is, Walt Frazier says, James Harden plays like him.

[00:16:45] I don't see it.

[00:16:46] I don't see it.

[00:16:47] I don't think defense when I think James Harden.

[00:16:49] No, that's one of the reasons.

[00:16:52] Frazier wasn't as ball dominant as Harden.

[00:16:55] But what I thought about this, and I was thinking about it, and not similar games,

[00:17:02] because Frazier can hit the 15-footer all night, and Shea Gilgis Alexander can defend,

[00:17:07] but he goes to the basket more.

[00:17:09] But I'm going to give you an old-timer who's not even near as good as him.

[00:17:14] But as a whole, I believe he's a lot of forward, but somewhat similar in the type of game.

[00:17:21] Dennis Johnson, tremendous defense, clutch player, and could do a lot of different things.

[00:17:28] Like Frazier, only Frazier took Leans all.

[00:17:30] He had a judge.

[00:17:31] And it was Frazier, and he always had a flair.

[00:17:33] No, that's not Frazier.

[00:17:34] But Frazier always had, yeah, never was.

[00:17:37] Always had a flair when he throws passes.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:43] Watching this, and this is where I, what I enjoy about this is I love to learn,

[00:17:48] because a lot of this stuff I've never, ever seen.

[00:17:51] And you look at just how under control he was, and I think of players like Norm Nixon,

[00:17:58] who was a great guard with the Lakers.

[00:18:01] And again, I can only relate him to players I watched growing up,

[00:18:04] but I see a lot of Norm Nixon.

[00:18:06] Clutch shot, steady.

[00:18:08] That's, you know, watching with the ball, and you could just see how steady a game,

[00:18:13] until he felt he's got something.

[00:18:15] And it was great with that little turnaround that you just saw.

[00:18:17] That was the other thing, too.

[00:18:18] Now, you have to understand, going behind your back and doing things like that,

[00:18:23] coach his back would pull you.

[00:18:25] Right.

[00:18:26] It was intolerant.

[00:18:27] When Kuzi didn't, he was considered a hack dog,

[00:18:30] because he was the only one who could do it.

[00:18:32] So, with Snow P, when he came along, similar time as Frazier,

[00:18:37] he began to change the game where people could live.

[00:18:40] And that's what's so amazing about the evolution of the game, right?

[00:18:43] You see someone like Pistol, Bob Kuzi tested the waters, Pistol,

[00:18:46] P came in, kicked the door down, and then Walt Frazier and other people

[00:18:49] are wrapping the ball behind their backs.

[00:18:51] Steph Curry come in, and all of a sudden, the three-point shot revolutionized.

[00:18:55] I don't want to interrupt you, but you see how he steals everything?

[00:18:58] He just...

[00:18:58] There you go.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:18:59] The hands, and he was...

[00:19:01] He was great.

[00:19:02] I wasn't even that clever, but I just...

[00:19:04] He was one of my favorites to watch.

[00:19:06] Nice.

[00:19:07] Nice.

[00:19:08] The greatness of Walt Frazier.

[00:19:10] More than just an announcer, and I hope that you guys enjoy learning a little bit about

[00:19:15] this NBA great.

[00:19:17] As a reminder, next week of 13 Rules, Random NBA Thoughts Overtime,

[00:19:21] Steve and I are going to start a, what I'm sure is going to be a fun, respectful,

[00:19:28] calm discussion.

[00:19:29] I don't share, but go ahead.

[00:19:32] We're going to share our memories of the Celtics-Lakers finals rivalry in the 1980s.

[00:19:37] It's going to be a blast.

[00:19:38] I'm really looking forward to it.

[00:19:40] And stay tuned, please.

[00:19:42] Make sure to subscribe.

[00:19:43] Make sure to like, comment.

[00:19:45] All that stuff matters so much to us.

[00:19:47] And if you do, you'll know that later on this week, we're going to be interviewing another

[00:19:52] NBA great.

[00:19:54] And that's all we'll say for now.

[00:19:55] But that information, if you add us, will come soon.

[00:19:58] So excited to do that.

[00:19:59] Thanks, as always, for finding us.

[00:20:01] Thanks for listening.

[00:20:03] Steve, appreciated your time.

[00:20:04] We'll talk next week.

[00:20:05] Lakers-Celtics.

[00:20:08] Cheers.

[00:20:09] All right, man.