The Ice Capades Trade That Built a Dynasty: Inside the NBA's Greatest GM Heist

Shot Clock Pod - Sept 20 2026 === Jose: ​[00:00:00] All right, it's time to talk basketball once again. I'm Jose Salviati, editor at thePeachBasket.net. He is Steve Purciello, host of Celtic Chalk Talk, a longtime educator, vice principal, high school basketball coach, and athletic director. And this is the Shot Clock Pod. The Shot Clock Pod was born out of the content in Steve's 13 Rules Random NBA Thoughts articles, which he publishes weekly. Steve and I have exactly 24 minutes to discuss what's on his mind around the NBA. Today, we're discussing his latest 13 Rules Random NBA Thoughts article. Now, if you're listening to us, thank you. We want you to know that we are one of many independent fan-driven shows on the Peach Basket Podcast Network of shows. We're not owned by big media, which means that what you hear comes straight from real fans who live the game every day, just like Steve and I. If you believe voices like this should be heard, the best way to support is simple. Keep listening. Keep watching. Tell a friend. Subscribe, comment, all that stuff means everything to us, and we appreciate all of it. As soon as this episode ends, head over to thePeachBasket.net, check out more fan-run podcasts, and [00:01:00] help this independent network grow the way it started, organically, one hoops fan just like you. Out of time. We're glad you're here. Thank you. Steve, are you ready? Steve: Ready Jose: Let's do it. I'm gonna start the timer. Boom. All right, and we're off. This week, the focus for your article was on the best GMs of all time. Last week we talked about the best coaches. But you included a few interesting nuggets of knowledge thrown in, and I wanna hit those first and then we're gonna get to the GMs. First off, and we talked about this now three weeks in a row, maybe more, and that is the Los Angeles Clippers saga. You called out that Ballmer accepted his punishment. You gave him kudos for that. Y- I've talked a lot over the last couple weeks about Clipper fans and how hurt I feel for them. What do you make of the Clippers, though? Now, this has gotta raise a little bit of... i, there's no hope. But the dust has settled a little bit, and hopefully they can move forward. Do you see any hope for the Clippers this season [00:02:00] at all? Steve: It went from being new news to it will become quickly old news. And the quicker it becomes old news, the more the fans will stay invested and everything will work. More importantly what Ballmer did and I hope somebody sat him down and explained, "It's the only way out. You're not gonna win when you take on the NBA. You might win in court or whatever, but then you're gonna alienate the o- other owners. You're just not gonna win. So you did the right thing. Let's move on. Let's let this go away. In a couple months, you start bringing back Lawrence. Frank comes back, and you start putting your thing together again and figure out a plan, how are we gonna go forward? you didn't do this and it was tied up in court, God only knows, and it might have gone on for a while and just would've made, created bad feelings." So it was good. And then the last caveat with that is naturally they might get a draft pick or two back. If Ballmer's a good boy for a year or two, accepts everything, he might get a draft pick or two back. Because [00:03:00] one of the things we're missing, the Clippers have to decide a direction. And when I say decide a direction, you've got some assets there, some players that can play. Do you do and go back to what Oklahoma City did, going way back when they traded Paul George and got Shai, but do you begin to trade those assets and just amass as many draft picks as you can, and then slowly put it together like Oklahoma? How do you move forward? Do you try to just get by and keep s- decent free agents and win 40 games every year? And one more piece, one more piece that's really important. You got one of the best coaches in the league on your bench, and you've got one of the best defensive coaches in the league on your bench, meaning Van Gundy and Lou. Do you think Ty Lue is going to wanna waste a bunch of years? And you've gotta figure that one out quick. [00:04:00] And then you've gotta, go from there. Usually in a situation like this, like Oklahoma did, and I'm using Oklahoma as a model, they hired Mark Daigneault. Kinda worked out Jose: Yeah. Steve: But that's the things they have to navigate right now and they have to figure out Jose: Yeah. I think I can speak for Clipper fans everywhere that every time you bring up the Thunder being the template for building greatness, it just hurts all the more because that building brick the biggest brick there started because of what they got from the Clippers. So it hurts, man. Steve: wanted Jose: That, that hurts Steve: Who wanted Paul George on this team? Jose: Oh, Kawhi. No. Yeah. No they weren't getting Kawhi unless they got Paul George, and A- and we know now, right? K- Kawhi forced their hand. And, listen, the Clippers did it, but, "Give me Paul George." "Okay." "Give me commitments that I don't have to show up for and still get paid for." "Okay." It's horrible, man. And I'm hopeful that it's behind [00:05:00] them a- and that and that the team can move forward. It's gonna be a rough couple of years, though Steve: If the Clippers or better yet, if the Lakers and Clippers become competitive, which I don't think they will because the Clippers aren't gonna be real good. But if they become competitive, I know the Lakers like statues. They should put a Kawhi Leonard statue up for the Clippers because it's, he's done more to help the Lakers or, and other teams than he did to help those Clippers Jose: That's powerful. And you're right. We talked about it last week. I- in a very real way, if this hasn't been happening with the Clippers, the biggest story in LA is what's going on with the Lakers. W- they got their own mess, but i- it has just been swept under the rug because of the, the bomb that went off just down the hall for the Clippers. Yeah. A Kawhi statue Steve: Next to Jose: is Steve: right next to Kobe there Jose: is, Yeah, I laugh because it hurts. All right. We gotta go on. But I am very curious, and we just talked about [00:06:00] it before we started, before we hit record. There's a lot of interesting side stories i- in the NBA this season. Certainly a lot a- about what's going on in Philadelphia. But Kawhi's first game backing into it is going to be must-watch TV, man. I have a sense that Clipper fans are going to be very vocal. They're very mad, and they're gonna be vo- not just with Kawhi there, just in general, just at the games. But when Kawhi comes, another level of just anger. That's gonna be must-watch TV All right, on we go. Steve: nothing. I got nothing. I agree with you. I agree with you. He comes off so horribly in Jose: Yeah. Yeah Steve: a man who, "It's about me, and pay me, and, I don't have to do it." It's just, it's horrible. It's a Jose: Yeah. Steve: thing Jose: Yeah, undeniable, and hopefully the last time we talk about it 'cause I just wanna move on, but on we go. Let's talk about the other nugget you dropped, which you surprised me a little bit. The, the [00:07:00] Detroit Pistons were the darlings of the NBA when they went from, really bad I think two seasons ago. They were really bad, then they had a really great bounce back. They won 60 games last year. But you're calling them out. Now let let me read this carefully 'cause I wanna be very specific for all the D- Pistons fans that are listening. But you're saying basically they're ready for a downward slide. Specifically, they lost Isaiah Stewart, they lost Caris LeVert, and I think most importantly, and you said this as well, they lost Tobias Harris. They got some good players in return: Isaiah Hartenstein, John Collins Taurean Prince, Gary Harris. But losing a veteran, specifically like Harris, you think is going to be really impactful. Why do you think it's that impactful, though, to this team? Steve: first of all, right now they're going through a, a little bit of a rough thing with Jalen Duren Jose: During, Steve: and signing him. Now, probably he'll be back. He's got to make a decision by the 1st of October, I believe. But he'll be back probably. But he's not gonna be a happy [00:08:00] Warrior. Jose: Yeah Steve: and he's probably gonna want out as soon as he can get out. Tobias Harris was the guy everybody respected. Tobia- And so was Isaiah Stewart to some extent. they were two guys that everybody respected, everybody wanted, listened to. They were the veterans, the wise old veterans who can help. Cade Cunningham's the leader by talent, guys have been around and they know and they are the people that led them. It was a beautiful story. Everybody was happy. In fact, six months ago, Duren was saying he wanted to re- or eight months, whatever, a year ago, "I wanna, re-sign with the Pistons," and all that. That ain't there anymore. And that's gonna-- it's gonna be a struggle. Now, 60 wins is ridiculous because the East is much, much better than what it was. So teams like them I'll think of Boston off the top of my head, those kind of teams are [00:09:00] going to are going to-- They they're they might be better than they were last year, but they're not gonna win as many games. Don't forget, Indiana's got Halliburton coming back, Jose: Yeah, sure Steve: in Žubac, so they're gonna be good. Last year they were just a tank team. They were just playing it out. So the conference, Eastern Conference is much better. So again, even if Detroit plays as well as last year, they'll probably win 50 games because the, just the competition level's bigger, tougher. There's only two bad teams in the East where... m- by bad I mean that if we sat down right now and said, "Who's not making the playoffs?" There's two teams we can think of that wouldn't. Everybody else, yeah, they got a shot. So think about it. Before when people were tanking, last year I think there were five or six teams that were tanking in the East. There's not that. So the winning is gonna be tough, and teams won't hit the- what they hit last year [00:10:00] is my point Jose: Yeah. No, it makes sense. And, y- again, I bring this up from time to time, Steve's East Coast, I'm West Coast. So the whole Jalen Duren, situation is hasn't been front and center for me. But I'm looking now and I'm blown away 'cause J- Jalen Duren, All-Star, he had a, a really poor playoffs. Undeniable, but a very good player. And he right now can sign a one-year qualifying offer of 9.6 million for the s- the type of player he is, I can see where he would be insulted. Which I know is hard to fathom, 9.6 million. But that's, come on. This is a guy who's worth a lot more than that Steve: First of all, the-- they were offering I don't know, there was a $5 million difference, which is nothing when you're talking about the money we're talking about. To me, that's crazy. The second thing about that is, I'm Doran, I don't take 9 million. I want the big contract. In the NBA, it's become [00:11:00] fashionable. signs a-- They don't ask to be traded until they sign the big contract. Then they ask out. So if Doran... And Doran might, take the money, whatever it is, sign it, five years, four years, whatever it may be, and maybe at the end of the year say, "Get me out of here." Hey, you know what? He's got a contract and he's making a lot of money. It's silly on his part to fight over 5 million with all that money involved. I really think that's crazy, and he's gotta understand that I'm-- I would think his agents had to slowly point it out to him. was terrible in the playoffs. Jose: Yeah Steve: terrible. In fact, they were using Paul Reed now in the fourth quarter instead of him. So he's gotta, he's gotta realize that's a factor in this. That's a reason why. And if you, again, go back to Detroit last year, when a big situation came about, two people took the shots, Cade Tobias [00:12:00] Harris. Tobias Harris made some big baskets for that team. It wasn't Doran. Again I'm sure that the rumor was Sacramento wants him. And I'm sure 'cause Sacramento's, you wanna go play out there, go do it. But the rumor was... and they're gonna pay him. They'll pay him what he wants. But do you wanna play in Sacramento? I wouldn't, there's not much chance they're gonna get better. So that, that's-- Somebody'll always pay you, but you like to pick where you are. And, Detroit seemed pretty good. It was a good story last year. Now it's already turned ugly Jose: Yeah. Yeah, hoping things p- plan out. Matter of fact, let me ask that in the form of a question. Let's say things do work out and they meet in the middle. It looks like, you said 5 million a- apart during I'm just reading, during this camp is pushed for about a 40 million annual salary, which it might be a lot. Let's say they meet in the middle, they give him 38, 39 or something, I don't know. And it works. At that point, do you [00:13:00] change your mind on the Pistons? Steve: play for him because, But I think that the hurt is there and you feel like they undervalued you Jose: yeah. Yeah, Steve: doesn't go away that easily. And the people Jose: Damage is done. Steve: the Jose: Yeah Steve: staff and the general manager, Trajan Langdon and all those people, ownership, don't look at them in a nice way anymore because they were... one of the problems in negotiations is there's two sides. One side is telling you how good they are, the other side is telling you the problems they had, he's Jose: Yeah. Steve: problems. Jose: Right Steve: I don't know. I don't know. I know he's got a tight bond with Cade, so that, that could help and you hope so because it was a good story last year. And if you watched the Pistons play, they were never... Cade's great. Cade's one of the best in the league. But they were never like this tremendous talent, but they grinded way to wins every time and it was fun. It was a fun watch. Now, your supposedly second-best player is upset. Now, the last thing I'm gonna say about that, and if you think about it, [00:14:00] I don't quite understand. I think it's all ego and be able to tell your players in the NBA what you're making. But if I'm Duran, if I take 35, at least 5 million on the table year, and maybe the Pistons can go out and sign a shooter or sign somebody. Jose: Sure Steve: gonna... Taking that 5 million less, is that gonna change his life? No, I don't think so. His grandkids are set. To me, these guys, like the, it it's it's all about that... I don't know if it's ego or just to tell your friends, "Hey, I'm making more than you." I don't know. But it just, it, to me it doesn't make sense. And I wanna just, I'm gonna segue to something just to think about. The Celtics dealt Jaylen Brown, and it was monetary because they didn't wanna... they didn't think the formula with two guys making max money could win. And I'm Jose: Yeah Steve: Stevens is way smarter than me. I'm sure [00:15:00] they sat down with Brown and said, "In the next contract, what would you take?" And I'm I'm not positive, but I would think Brown probably said, "Max. I'm an MVP in the..." And Jose: Yeah. Steve: crunched numbers and said, "Wait a minute, we can't do this," and then have, a couple other guys. So these are all things people need to understand about the salary cap and the situation in the NBA today Jose: Yeah. Which is a perfect segue to conversation about GMs. Well done. We've talked a lot on this show here about how hard a job that is. Y- you build the best team you can and sometimes everything looks great on paper, but man, on the court it just doesn't work out. Sometimes it's a it's luck. You grab the guy and he turns out to be phenomenal. It's a hard job, and super hard to get it consistently right. But there are four people who did over the course of their career, and you called them out. The Mount Rushmore of NBA GMs, Jerry West, Red Auerbach Pat [00:16:00] Riley, and Jerry Krause. I wanna talk about each of them in order. You put two head and shoulders above the other two. So I'm kinda guessing at the bottom two, but let, why don't we start with Jerry Krause? Jerry Krause, of course, the orchestrator of those great Michael Jordan teams. You could argue that I could've GM'd that team because you're gonna pick Michael Jordan. But it's the Scottie Pippen trade, and you called this out. It was pretty spectacular. I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole 'cause I really didn't know Pippen's history, Pippen's story, but Krause traded for him. This guy was listed as an unremarkable Pippen, a, an unremarkable athlete who barely garnered major college recruiting attention. Ended up competing in the NAIA, not the NCAA. But Krause saw something in this skinny guy, who was an unheralded high school player from a small town in Arkansas. One of 12, youngest of 12 kids. Krause saw something in him and traded for him. So he does belong on the list 'cause obviously Pippen... That's a good question. What happens to Michael [00:17:00] Jordan without a Scottie Pippen? Steve: I think Krause, the, the thing that made him special also, he didn't take Jordan. Somebody else selected him. But, But when, who was it? Horace Grant left, was smart enough to bring Dennis Rodman in. he made-- And Luc Longley, who was a, a journeyman center, did well with them. So he was smart enough to build... Tony Kukoc, he was smart enough to build around Jordan and get the proper players that, that allowed them to win. Pippen was great. He's a Hall of Famer and one of the greats. But at the work he did around, around Jordan, and that's what made him good. Six rings isn't bad either. knock on him would be after Jordan left, he had a lot of time to try to put something together and the Bulls were terrible, That time. So that would be the negative. But the positive there is six titles. Wow. Jose: Yeah. Steve: it was on Jordan's back but [00:18:00] still six titles Jose: It's funny how good a GM looks with a, a Michael Jordan on your team. But yeah, shout out to Rod Thorn, who was the, the man in charge when when when Jordan was selected. Let's move on. Next you called out I think it was, yeah, Jerry West, right? No, no Steve: Pat Riley Jose: Pat Riley. Doggone it. I t- I took notes. I didn't take great notes. Pat Riley, who incidentally was also on the coaches Mount Rushmore, so good on him, and you called out what an amazing career he had. Now, he orchestrated that LeBron, Bosh, and Wade team. He brought over Shaq. What are the highlights of his GM career? Steve: Well, just what you're talking about, he convinced LeBron to stay in two out of four. But people forget Chris Bosh, he bought him, so they had a big three back when big threes were feasible financially. Jose: Yeah Steve: But he had that big three and what's interesting is he got those three, and he went out and he had no [00:19:00] money, and he built a little bit of a, a team around that. So that was an interesting thing. But he also had Shaq in 2006, Jose: Right Steve: And the other thing he's done is he's kept the Lakers-- the Lakers, the Heat in the conversation. Every year they're in the conversation. He hasn't won as much as Jerry Krause, but he's kept them in the conversation. His idea of basketball, the honest thing exemplifies it, get a star and then worry about everything else. And it's kinda worked for him. And, he's made the Heat a great franchise in the NBA Jose: Yeah. Undeniable. And of course, for all of that, he's getting a statue in LA. Steve: Well, that's another Jose: so good on him. All right, let's keep going. And I blew the, blew, blew this story here a little bit. But the top two GMs, and no argument from I don't think anybody Jerry West is one of those two. Jerry West, amazingly for me, has links to from Mike-- Magic Johnson all the way to Steph Curry. [00:20:00] This guy was involved in some of the greatest basketball teams of all time. What's his resume as a GM, 'cause it's pretty spectacular Steve: he, first of all, he was one of the greatest talent evaluators of any person that ever did Jose: Yeah Steve: He's the one, I know Kobe held out. He didn't wanna play with with the Carolina team w- when he got drafted. He got him. But he-- they always said that Wes thought that was the best workout of any rookie or any, any draft prospect that he ever saw. So he did that. He convinced Shaq to come to team up with Kobe when Shaq was a free agent, got him to come, and the Lakers won off of that. Then he went to Golden State and he was a key advisor and he's with the Curry group. He's, he was the guy that put that together. He's had a great career. More of an evaluator of talent and the ability to go get that talent, where the other where Aurbach was a [00:21:00] lot different, but similar in some ways in, in evaluating talent Jose: Yeah and like we hinted before, it goes all the way back to, the '80s forward to Steph Curry's Warriors. He had a hand in some of the best teams in, in, in NBA history, which is pretty spectacular, and absolutely he belongs on Mount Rushmore next to the number one, nine titles as a GM, built one of the greatest teams ever assembled in the Boston Celtics. And with some savvy trades, he worked like a magician. You wrote about this to attain Bird. So let's talk about the greatest GM in NBA history right off the bat Steve: First of all, he, in 1980 Boston had the first pick in the draft Auerbach, Joe Barry Carroll at that time was considered a superstar in waiting. Auerbach wasn't interested. Auerbach [00:22:00] loved this guy with long arms that was from the University of Minnesota who had a funny body, but he loved him. It was Kevin McHale. Jose: Yeah Steve: liked Robert Parish. Parish at that time was drafted by Golden State, was not considered big time and he was considered lazy and a lot of knocks on him. So Auerbach traded the number one pick for Golden State's number three, plus Robert Parish. Auerbach gave him a f- gave up a first round later, I believe in the draft, in that draft, but, or in the next year's draft, whatever. But from that he got two Hall of Famers for Joe Barry Carroll, which is incredible. So that's Jose: man Steve: thing, but let's go back. in the earl- or late '50s or mid '50s, he had a guy by the name of Bob Cousy, who was the best guy in the league and a drawing card 'cause he did things behind his back, things that guys, everybody does now. Throwing passes or dribbling between, all that stuff. But he had [00:23:00] nothing else and he had no big. There's a guy at the University of San Francisco that won about 50 games in a row and won two national titles that he saw. So what did he do? He made a trade, got him, gave some players to the Hawks, but also to the Royals, I believe the Rochester Royals. He allowed them to have the Ice Capades 'cause Boston, the owner Paul Brown, owned the Ice Capades, so he gave them for an extra week and they decided not to pick Russell. He got Russell the rest is history. So that's the Jose: Yeah Steve: Now we get to the, in the '70s he took Dave Cowens, a small 6'9" center. Check his thing, he's in the Hall of Fame. Had a great career and that came together with Havlicek and Jo White and they won two titles, beating Jabbar when he was with the Bucks. So they won two titles with that group. Now we get to 1980, the Celtics are really in trouble. They've been reeling. They're not [00:24:00] good. what does Auerbach do? He decides he's gonna take this guy from Indiana State. The problem is he's got another year eligibility. Back then the NBA was different where if your class was grad- you can be drafted even if you weren't ready. Now you gotta declare and do the whole thing. he takes Larry Bird as the sixth pick in the first round. Now kind of worked out fairly well. Bird won three more. So this is Red Auerbach and the things he can do. He might not have had Jerry West's ability to evaluate, but think about this. Three different groups he put together that won titles. It's remarkable and we're not even getting into what Bill Russell did winning 11 out of 13, which is incredible. Jose: Right Steve: so y- you look at the totality of his work. Do I think Jerry West is great? Yeah, I do. But my goodness, what Auerbach did here [00:25:00] is just, it's remarkable. Is. So that's why I believe the, probably the greatest trade, the greatest steal in NBA history was the McHale-Parish trade. Probably one of the great draft picks of all time is Larry Bird, obviously. And Bill Russell, you give him the Ice Capades and you're getting the best center who's gonna win you titles. It's beyond belief his ability. And we didn't even, we talked about his coaching last week, but it's just incredible what he's done. And by the way, he always had the ability to piece together and find... Here, I'll give you another one just off the top of my head. was this guy the Lakers had that they cut. A pretty good player, became a pretty good player. Had a funny-looking foul shot, but guy by the name of Don Nelson. You ever hear of him? The Celtics picked him up. This guy was gonna be out of the league. He's got a number, he's got his number up in, in Boston Garden. So my point being, Auerbach found people that would piece [00:26:00] in with these people, and won. That's what's incredible. Made the trade for Bill Walton, and that '85, '86 team is probably in the top two or three of all-time great teams. Jose: Yeah Steve: We... I can go on but the accolades are easy. But, and the more I think, the more I can give you more great trades that were pulled off by him. That's why he's the, the top Jose: No argument from me. I think in going down the rabbit hole, the Ice Capades one just really sticks out 'cause again, digging into this a little bit he effectively traded the Ice Capades f- for Bill Russell, Steve: But Jose: is unbelievable Steve: You've got to-- when you look at basketball's history, NBA history, you've got to put it into context. In 1955 or so, '56, the NBA not considered Jose: Yeah. Steve: for owners. Jose: Yeah Steve: And it was there, but it wasn't... now you laugh and think it's cra- but put it in context. Put Jose: Oh, 100%. Steve: then. But a lot of people [00:27:00] don't, and they don't realize. And even going back to when these Celtics got Larry Bird, remember, Bird and Johnson saved the NBA. When I talk about the '70s with the NBA, people are, really, like they they're not-- it's not important to them. So my point being if you put it all in context, you get a, a different feel for what happened. The Ice Capades is silly, but you know what? That would pack the arena in Rochester, so therefore they do it, Jose: It makes sense. Steve: Yeah Jose: You've gotta be judged based on the rules at the time, and Red Auerbach did something that anybody could've done, but nobody did except for him. Steve: Oh, yeah Jose: And that's why he belongs on, u- undeniably on, on the the Mount Rushmore of GMs. Steve: One more, one Jose: I... Steve: thing. One more quick thing. Jose: Yeah Steve: The famous story. Ben Kerner was the owner of the St. Louis Hawks, and in the beginning Bob Pettit played with the Hawks, and the Celtics and Hawks [00:28:00] to the finals a couple years and so on. But the famous story is, I don't know if Kerner said something or he said something, punched out K- Ben Kerner. That's a famous story. So Arback was somebody who the rest of the league didn't like, was quite Jose: Yeah. Un- undeniably and again, going down the rabbit hole, it was the Ice Capades. Rochester passed on Russell, selected Sihugu Green, a name I- Siyugo, oh, with apologies to Mr. Green. Selected Siyugo Green, then the Hawks drafted Russell, so then the Celtics traded Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan. So it cost them the Ice Capades, Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan for Bill Russell. Steve: Now Jose: Any way you slice the pie, it's incredible Steve: Just a little bit of trivia. The Kansas the Rochester Royals, what team are they today?[00:29:00] Jose: Sacramento Kings Steve: And of it It all fits Jose: How sad. And on that note, with apologies to the good people and great fans in Sacramento. Steve: great fans. I feel sorry Jose: U- Steve: for them Jose: undeniably. But you heard the shot clock go off. Another shot clock violation for us. That is it. Our time is up. A great conversation today. Always fun to just chat, and that's I think that's that's when things are kinda interesting and super fun. But thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Make sure to read Steve's entire 13 rules random NBA thoughts article. We'll link it wherever you're watching or listening to this show today to get more of his N- NBA random thoughts. And of course, join us next week as we inch closer to the 2026-27 NBA season. Excited for that. Steve, we'll talk next week. Thank you Steve: Take care